July 5, 2021

Freedman's Factory: What is nocode?

In episode 22 of the podcast, the topic is: Freedman's Factory: What is nocode?. Our guest is Mark Freedman, Lean Practice Leader at Tulip for our new segment, Freedman's Factory, which you will always recognize within other Augmented episode because of especially groovy music. Freedman's Factory will take us deep into the shop floor philosophy of Kaizen, and with that, into the heart of manufacturing excellence

In this conversation, which is the first episode of the new segment we have called Freedman's factory, which takes us deep into the shop floor philosophy of Kaizen. We introduced this new segment a month ago. In this episode of Freedman's Factory, we talked about Nocode in manufacturing. What is it? What existed before? What’s the difference it makes?

After listening to this episode, check out Tulip's and Mark Freedman's profile on social media:

  • Tulip (@tulipinterfaces): https://tulip.co/ 
  • Mark Freedman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markjfreedman/

My takeaway is that Nocode for industrial applications is something truly special. Building on what we have come to know from contemporary software applications that don't have a learning curve, industrial nocode attempts the same thing, but with software written for the physical world, which is immeasurably harder to do because production cannot go down and you don't get second chances. I learned from Mark Freedman, that Tulip's deeply humanistic approach to nocode is rooted in the shopfloor experience, in trying to reflect, but also question factory floor behavior. I am on a learning journey. I still want to understand more the discrete tasks and functions that digital nocode apps make flow so naturally--work instructions, machine monitoring and other things. As always, the depth in Freedman's message lies, it seems to me, in his insistence on experience before tools, understanding before action, and understanding people, and the reasons behind their current process, way before introducing any kind of technology as a tool to simplify their life.

Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at Augmentedpodcast.co or in your preferred podcast player, and rate us with five stars. If you liked this episode, you might also like episode 10, A Brief History of Manufacturing Software, episode 6, Human-Robot Interaction challenges, or episode 1, Automation to Augmentation - the podcast's vision to build a movement. Also, if you missed the introduction to Freedman's Factory, listen to episode 15: Freedman's Factory: Introduction. Augmented-upskilling the workforce for industry 4.0 frontline operations.


#22Freedman's Factory: what is no-code?_Mark-Freedman

[00:00:00] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:00:00] Freedman's factory ,Freedman's factory. In episode #22 of the podcast the topic is Freedman's factory - what is no-code? Our guest is Mark Freedman lean practice leader at Tulip for our new segment "Freedman's factory", which you will always recognize within other Augmented episodes because of especially grew of music. Freedman's factory will take us deep into the shop floor philosophy of Kaizen  and with that into the heart of Manufacturing excellence. In this conversation, we talk about what is no code, what existed before, or what difference does it make at no code vs. Low code? Augmented is a podcast for leaders.

[00:00:42] Hosted by futurists Trond Arne Undheim , presented by Tulip.co the front line operations platform I had associated with mfg.works. The Manufacturing upskilling community launched at the World Economic Forum, each episode dives, deep into a contemporary [topic of concern across the industry and air at 9:00 AM us Eastern time every Wednesday,.Augmented upskilling the workforce industry 4.0 from operations. Mark. How are you doing? 

[00:01:16] Mark Freedman: [00:01:16] Doing well. Nice to talk to you again. 

[00:01:19] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:01:19] Yeah. So today I wanted to talk a little bit about no code. What's all the fascinating about? 

[00:01:24] Mark Freedman: [00:01:24] Honestly, I hadn't really heard much about it. I'm not really a programmer at all. I'm a manufacturer primarily. That was my background. I've always been good with computers. I think like I was the Excel person, at my last companies and so on. But I think so I'm going to talk about no code in the context of solving problems in Manufacturing, because that's where my head is at. I know there's a lot of no code solutions out there where you can create software without having any programming knowledge. And that's like the gist of it. I, as far as I understand, you can basically create software solutions to whatever, without having to know how to write, whatever language they use.

[00:02:07]Which is I don't even know what the languages are, but like intense languages that require studying and computer science degrees. 

[00:02:13] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:02:13] Maybe we should start with one thing that I don't know that it's entirely clear to me. So you said, you're not a software programmer yet. You now are deeply interested in, in, in these things.

[00:02:25] Where did you come from? What was your, inroads into this now no-code environment. So you said you're a manufacturer. What was that like? 

[00:02:37] Mark Freedman: [00:02:37] So Manufacturing, I fell into love with Manufacturing. I didn't study it. I just like understanding things and fixing them. So when I joined the Manufacturing company, it was filled with problems and systems and so much learn and understand and do and build. It was really cool. And they had problems. And I found them using things like paper I don't think a favor, but they were like writing, like their output, like how many parts they did on a piece of paper. And then every day I'd have to go to this piece of paper and collect it and then write it into Excel. It was wild. So I wanted to know how many they were making all the time. So the first time I opened up Microsoft access and I made a little Forum, I had no idea what I was doing. It was all Google. Like, how do I do this? And then I had them using this program to input data and then fast forward five or six years.

[00:03:26] And the whole like factory is outfitted with like dashboards and like access databases and all this sorts of stuff and and it was just occurred to me that the reason that this is. That there, these things are proliferating throughout the building is because they're solving problems and they're helping, so like people can use software to solve problems and it's not really like accessible to people.

[00:03:49]But I was really frustrated with access for so many reasons. Like it's, it's not awesome. And again, I'm listening, I'm a total hack. I'm like learning on the fly. , but then, like other companies I worked at and so on and went to, I just kept finding this pattern where it's people well want to solve problems.

[00:04:05] And a lot of the problems they want to solve could be solved with a software solution. But no one in the building is a software engineer. No one can program. So these options aren't available to you, like you're using whiteboards and paper and whatever you can because.  you've got to get it done.

[00:04:23] And then if you want software, like you're going to hire someone and they're not going to know anything about your process. And they're just going to try and build you some software. And it's going to take them awhile and they're not going to iterate on it. It's so different than the way that a facility manufacturing facility works.

[00:04:41] Like I'll make, I made the same, like workstation, like five times, because the first one was like, okay, the second one was better. And then, we got new material and this one was even better than that. And then, like you can you're changing, like your demand changes, your products, change, your processes changed, like it's all changing.

[00:04:59] So like your software used to be able to adapt and no code. Just lets you do that in ways that I don't even understand like a lot of this stuff that people program in Tulip, which is where I work. I'm like these guys are geniuses. I have no idea what's happening when I could solve something with Tulip, like it's just working.

[00:05:18]I don't know how I'm connected to that machine necessarily, but I can use that and it works and now I can solve that problem. So it's just like a really great tool. That's.  democratized, I guess like you can actually do it if you want to.

[00:05:30] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:05:30] So interesting because if you think about there's two problems, right?

[00:05:33] The two worlds meeting is like, The world of Manufacturing, which may not necessarily be understood by the average it programmer. Or definitely isn't understood by the average it program. And let's go that far and then you have the world of it programming, which at least historically wasn't so present.

[00:05:51] Even if you were an engineer in manufacturing, the process engineer, you are not coding or at least, a while back, you weren't coding very much. 

[00:05:59]Mark Freedman: [00:05:59] Then there's also a hugegap like it's not just that these worlds are so far apart from each other or have been, there are some things like ERP is and stuff.

[00:06:06] We can talk about that, but or like MES and things of that nature, but like these worlds, let's just say they're far apart from each other from this because of the code barrier. And in the middle of that, there is a huge gap it's like wide chasm of technology that you're used to using in your everyday life.

[00:06:23] That doesn't, like I'm so connected to my phone and my personal life. And everyone I know is as well I don't know the last time I called the pizza place to order a pizza or like any of this stuff, and Uber and all this stuff, like you can just use your phone to solve a problem.

[00:06:36] That's very common that you would normally have to do something different for. And no, one's doing that for Manufacturing. At least not that I've seen. There's so many places where that just doesn't exist because maybe the problems are so specific. The processes are so special. Quote unquote, but really it's are simple problems that you just need a very, you just need, you can use software to solve them.

[00:06:58] Now there's a ton of problems in Manufacturing that don't have anything to do with software and I'm not talking about those ones, I'm talking about like a tool that would know code and like how a tool is now suddenly available to you. And you should take advantage of it and one thing that's interesting about note, like it's not just no code, because it's also a changing environment. So let me just give one example and that'll stop. But the example is Cree Forum, right? And Manufacturing there's this stuff called CRI Forum or extruded T-slot like. 80 20 or T slotted, aluminum extrusion. Like people basically want to build workstations or whatever fixtures looks like things.

[00:07:39] And they maybe don't have a workshop that they can work inlike they're maybe not like trained furniture makers or whatever, or toolmakers, they're just people who want to build a workstation. So what do you do? They have this stuff called CRI Forum that lets you build whatever you want with a pipe cutter and like an Allen key.

[00:07:56] And just Google it. Look at Cree Forum, this stuff, people make  all kinds of crazy imaginations, and that's the need, right? That's exact same need I'm talking about, but that's a physical one. I'm talking about the software one. It's the same thing. So like they made this Creaform stuff or whatever to make it so people could just create their imagination to solve a problem.

[00:08:19] No code let's do that with software. 

[00:08:23] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:08:23] It's fascinating, but I do wonder sometimes is this whole digital thing also sometimes so tempting that you're overdoing it because you are pointing to the fact that paper is great sometimes. And I'm just wondering what prompts you to say, Oh, there should be code here.

[00:08:39] Versus it's actually a problem that can be solving classic lean. Like it's actually a process and there's a leaner process and we could gain like 20% efficiency just by coming up with a better process. We might gain 20. 3% efficiency by doing a digital process, but, or is it always the case that once it digitized the process, especially with a no code solution where you control the process and the inputs and you you created it, so you're still owning it, even though there's a technology there helping you with it, is that always better?

[00:09:12] Or you were onto like some things that are actually just simple enough that they can be just solved right there in there. 

[00:09:18] Mark Freedman: [00:09:18] The answer is definitely no, it's not always better. It's you have to look at the problem you're trying to solve. That's really all it is like just cause you have some software that you could make or some Creaform or whatever that you could make something out of , it doesn't mean it's going to solve the problem you're talking about. And if you do that before you ever look at the problem, you're probably gonna be making a different problem occur. Like you have to actually look at the problem and think about it and talk to people who experience it and figure out what's happening.

[00:09:51] And then, you look to what you can do to solve it. And all I'm saying is that you now have software as an option where you didn't before. And there's like a lot of problems around communication or visual management or whatever where software is very helpful. Think about work, order tracking, if you're tracking a work order through a job shop. Like I  lived as a planner for a period of time and a machine shop and I had to walk around the building all the time, trying to find parts, because there were various stages of processing and if I didn't do that every day, then I didn't know where stuff was.

[00:10:27] And I might have to make I might have to pull things out of machines and put new things in, like it had to be on that. Like that problem. I would think that I need to have an updating system of where things are so that I can prioritize them. I also need an updating, like cue of what should go in next for people to know like what should happen, like for a person have the machine to say, this is the job that is here.

[00:10:49] I need to do this one this is a hot job or whatever, right? That's a software problem, but I didn't have software. But I might do is come up with a rack where, you know, first in, first out you put the paper in the first one in there, and then the second one, and you have to do the first one first, and then maybe the planner would go review that you can be very disciplined in your physical handling of travelers and so forth to make this work.

[00:11:11]But as a planner, I wouldn't know where everything is without physically going to see things. So the problem I wanted to solve was like, I want to know where everything is without having to go look for it so that's a song I can use the software so I can do software to solve that. But what if I don't have that software, then I have to like, how can I, so it's typically not an option, but now I'm saying it is, and it's not always better.

[00:11:34] There are plenty of times when it's yo just laminate that piece of paper, that work construction never changes. Stick it there don't make them touch a screen or anything. Just hang those. Don't even use that just like Mitt, the actual workstation. Like pokey Oak or something so you can only build it in this way.

[00:11:49]That's better than a tablet, in a sensor or whatever. So it totally depends on what you're trying to solve and it's your job as a problem-solver to understand it well [00:12:00] enough so that you can help improve it. 

[00:12:02] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:12:02] Yeah. It strikes me that it's so important for certainly if you're going to build a software system in Manufacturing you need to be. Talking to people on the shop floor. There are so many problems that you can't really imagine if you're sitting there at a desk with your code, trying to create a product and you don't talk to people on the floor with the variety of the garden, variety of problems that you're going to encounter on the shop floor.

[00:12:29] What are some of the things that you have been able to tell the software developers now that you work in a software company? That they aren't necessarily always aware of what are some of those small things that has to go into even a no-code software indefinitely to make it usable by people on the floor, as opposed to just, you think you're designing the perfect software flow, but it actually doesn't solve a problem that exists.

[00:12:58]Mark Freedman: [00:12:58] The thing that I find myself having to reiterate to myself and to others and just constantly remind myself of is that this thing that we're making right now, which by the way, it doesn't take long to make you spend more time actually figuring out what you should be making than like actually making the thing.

[00:13:21] When you put it out there, there's no expectation that it's going to be right. I'm like, do not assume that it's going to work assume that the person that you're giving this to  that person should know that you've listened to them and then what they're seeing as a result of their feedback and your time with them and your understanding of the problem.

[00:13:42] But then that's just the beginning now you need to actually like, watch it with them, be there and see what needs to change and then make more changes this isn't this is you're on a journey now of continuously improving. The software in the environment, because the environment is going to change later, too.

[00:14:01] They might move that sell. They might hire new people. They might change the standard work in that area. There might be a lot of things going on that have, has to happen. Companies make new products like they have product cycles, like life cycles, it's going to change and like maybe the processes will too maybe they get new machines and equipment who knows. This software is going to change and your first attempt, chances are, if you did a really good job, you're going to be pretty close. But you should operate under the assumption that you're just getting started and you should be changing this.

[00:14:30] And then that's going to further engage culturally, the people who are a part of that and then it's going to allow them to start looking they're gonna start looking for new things, they're gonna say, Oh this really helped me with this problem. I feel ownership over this process  i´m going to be bought into it. I'm gonna support it. I'm a champion of this and then I'm going to go and look for other opportunities to improve.and that is everything. It's literally everything to me.

[00:14:56]Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:14:56] What you're explaining is fascinating to me because in another [00:15:00] life, in another context, this is called scope creep and it is something that mentors will tell startups, software startups.

[00:15:09] Is scope creep you have to, get away from it as fast as possible don't even let your customer talk you into making all these customizations and it's dangerous. And you're talking about it as if it is the essence of what you're asked to deliver. How does that old scale or when you have to adopt that much?

[00:15:27] Mark Freedman: [00:15:27] So scope creep is a problem, but I would put that as a problem in. Oh, man. Let me see if I can describe it. So like scope creep, if you're trying to solve something, it's very important that you like eventually during your problem solving activity with a group, and however you're doing this, there's definitely ways of doing this that I'm more happy with than others, but as you do this you want to make sure that if something is out of scope, that don't let it distract you from making this the improvement you've decided upon you've made, you've decided on a problem.

[00:16:01] For right now, you want to solve, so solve that one problem now, but eventually once you've you have to focus on a thing. So focus on that thing and then don't let that don't, let's go, people occur but once you do that, you're looking for waste. You're looking for opportunitya nd I encourage that scope to go like all of the place that is you're looking for any opportunity to improve.

[00:16:22] That is going to make an impact and if you can find low-hanging fruit go after those, I, and like the more people on board with that, the better, because, especially the closer it is to gemba as closer as to the people doing the work, if they can get engaged, they start improving their own stuff. This is the culture you want and they'll of lives right in there. 

[00:16:44] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:16:44] Can you give me a quick overview of all these terms that you're using? You've mentioned many times, Clyde, Zen, gemba, and lean. And then, we've talked about no code at a sort of length. These are many of these are either Japanese management terms and they have traveled countries and decades. What have they meant to you? These various concepts? I know Kaizen is very dear to you. Yeah.

[00:17:12] Mark Freedman: [00:17:12] Kaizen is probably like the thing that I feel most passionately about.  and I'm not Japanese, but I've spent time with, like china consultants in this sort of business and read about it and have lived it. I feel it's too like words, I guess I don't really know much about language, but Kaizen is change in Zen is like good or for the better.

[00:17:35] So it's basically saying like change for the better and then, English version that would be like continuous improvement. And Zen is like Zen, but that sort of idea, that's what the Zen piece of it is and Kaizen has changed. So it's like that idea, whatever you body, that idea and cut and change.

[00:17:51] So making things better. And then there's another one which is changed for the worst iforget what it's. I forgot what that one is, but it's, that's a real thing too. So just because you're doing a Kaizen doesn't mean you're  actually doing Kaizen. So Kaizen is like really important that like you're literally trying to improve the thing.

[00:18:04]Not just cause Kaizen means like to some places they have these kinds of events, which is like a week-long event and you do a kickoff and you have this thing and I'm not thinking nothing against structured Kaizen like I'm a big fan of the saying Kaizen, the Kaizen, which is you always want to get better at the way.

[00:18:19] That you're trying to get better.  but like it's become productized in a lot of ways and there's we're going to do our standard work tool for this week. And then at the end, we're going to celebrate how much money we saved and maybe you didn't solve a problem. And that's totally not the idea of Kaizen, 

[00:18:34] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:18:34] cool. I believe kayak. Who was the word you were looking for? The change the worse? 

[00:18:38]Mark Freedman: [00:18:38] Yeah, maybe, probably. I believe you.

[00:18:43] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:18:43] Do you, have you seen a lot of that happening change for the worse? 

[00:18:46] Mark Freedman: [00:18:46] Yeah. Yeah. And that was you were saying earlier about would you just, isn't always better to use like digital tool or whatever, and it's no, it's not like you could just be, it's not always better to, just to like, Just apply. Like you don't apply, you don't take a hammer and just hit everything with it. You hit nails with hammers, so what are you hitting use? The tool that you want to hit is a tool that's gonna work. 

[00:19:05] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:19:05] All so we've talked a little bit about how to find the right tool if you have settled on, okay.

[00:19:10] No code is going to be a solution for some of my problems. You're an interesting case because you told me earlier, you  we went looking for those kinds of digital tools, and then you suddenly found it now, as you found it. Can you tell me about your journey in becoming comfortable with it?

[00:19:27] Because you said yourself, you're a manufacturer. You're not a coder. And even though it says no code, surely even the users there, there's a little bit of a journey too, to try to become comfortable with this approach. How was that for you? 

[00:19:41] Comfortable with the approach of no code of embracing a digital tool to do something when you're not a programmer.

[00:19:48] Like how did you find for instance, the Tulip tool? How did you get comfortable with it and started really implementing it and making changes on the shop floor, using that approach? [00:20:00] How was that? What was that like for you? Did you take a course? Did you just get exposed to it on the shop floor and learn it online? How did you pick it up? 

[00:20:09] Mark Freedman: [00:20:09] So I'll tell you a little bit about my journey. Like I said earlier, I was using like access, to do a lot of the things I would do, because it was the only thing that I could create a UI for, and I tried playing with Python and there's a couple of libraries.

[00:20:22] I think Tinder is one of them and that lets you make a user interface, but it's you actually have to code and it's just not like something that I'm going to be able to do very well at the way that I need to. So I was, it was at this like internal company conference and I was talking to people about this idea.I'm like, we need to make like software let me show you some of these solutions that we've made with access and Excel and whatever, and like they're so effective. Like we need to like, do something like this to enable people to solve this. And we have other people, like some companies I see hire software engineers, and they work on the floor and they have little skunkworks and they make their own software.

[00:21:05] And I saw that too and I was like, this is this is real. And this gap is real. This is real. We need to do something about this. And I was like, it doesn't exist. Let me Google it for you. And I Googled and then Tulip popped up and I had been Googling this for years as I was building it like this isn't the first time I thought about it.

[00:21:20] This is just the first time I said we need to make this. And I spoke on Tulip and I was just like, I got to go, let me look at this for a second. I got to talk to you later and I started playing, looking at it and I was like, No ways, this can't be like, I'm so skeptical. I was like, this can't be it.

[00:21:38] There's no way that this company is for real. I don't believe it, but if they are real, like I gotta know. So I, and it's from my hometown, it has a 3d printer that like Natan made this was part of Forum labs and so as much like signs that were like this company is cool. So I just got like factory kit.

[00:21:56] I had to doing a Kaizen like that week anyway and I want it to make a kidding, [00:22:00] sell, to solve a problem, which could be like, I was literally about to buy an Arduino and, or like a raspberry PI and try and program like a light kit thing. And then I saw they had one and I looked up like kit vendors, and it's all the old, it's all the other way of doing it.

[00:22:12]You have to hire a company and they come in and it's expensive. And it's I need this week, so I got the gateway, I brought it home that weekend. I played with it and I was like, okay, this is maybe  trying to understand, and it's weird, like, why can't I do this?

[00:22:26] Why can I do that? I wasn't like totally happy with it. This was a couple of years ago it was like a year ago maybe. And then after struggling a little bit for that weekend or that like day at the end it worked, so like I brought this thing home. I played around with this thing for the first time I've ever seen it and I had a light kit. I picked the light sales cell, like ready to roll and then it's still in use today. So I was like, I gotta talk to these people, I gotta figure it out.  

[00:22:54] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:22:54] What exactly did this could do?

[00:22:55]Mark Freedman: [00:22:55] The system basically where like a person would travel knowledge [00:23:00] and associates who had been there for a long time.

[00:23:01] These people could like decipher a packet and the packet had a bunch of part numbers on it and they would take a highlighter that would highlight the pieces that like meant something to them. And then they would gather pieces from different places and put them on a cart and give them to somebody else.

[00:23:18] And that was like, what that mean? That person was like the most important person that, that person was near the cell. Wouldn't be there. And there were problems too cause it's hard to decipher this. There's no real like I don't know how they're doing it, but they know it.

[00:23:28] Basically what the salt with this solution did was you would scan a part number or a serial number it would look up a bill of materials. And then all of the materials that could be available were on the shelf and it would just light up the ones that were associated with that. So like we went from having now anyone can do it and it's so much easier.

[00:23:52] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:23:52] Yeah. So no code in that sense can also be [00:24:00] threatening. Have you ever experienced it as threatening to people's expertise? 

[00:24:04] Mark Freedman: [00:24:04] That person didn't like doing, having to be responsible for memorizing these pirates and then getting blamed when there was like shortages and stuff so that person was.

[00:24:17] But I have seen people think that it's going to take my jobs. Like the threatening piece is definitely and it can be used in a threatening way. So like they're not wrong, but like the threatening piece is do you want me to scan in and scan out? You want to like time me, like, why are you like watching me this kind of thing, like that sort of activity is threatening. And sometimes people do it in a threatening waylike they will say that the operators don't care that, they're taking advantage of their lunch bags or whatever, and who knows. So sometimes people are using that to like discipline people. Those aren't the problems that I'm interested in solving.

[00:24:48] So if you're trying to solve those problems there's some sort of cultural who knows what's going on there. I want to guess, but I'm trying to help people, so it should be not be threatening, but I've [00:25:00] definitely seen examples where especially the timing of people, like it can be threatening, especially if people are maybe up to no good. Some people probably are. I don't know. 

[00:25:06] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:25:06] If you are set on learning no code. So you just told us about how, your way, what is a recommended way to get exposed to this stuff? Your way was you had a problem, you thought it might be solved by, or you were frustrated, with some of the old methods that would have entailed you having to buy a lot of stuff and wait for people to show up and then implemented for you.

[00:25:30] So you wanted to do something yourself. What is the best way to get exposed to, to know code? Is it just to experiment on your own or is there stuff available online to read about, how it has been implemented before best practices or if you are a small company that hasn't really digitized or you realize that we have digitized, but there are so many issues with this particular old school way of digitizing and you finding all these problems.

[00:25:58] What is the first [00:26:00] step? Towards the no-code World. 

[00:26:02] Mark Freedman: [00:26:02] I one of the questions, a little difficult, cause it's what is the, how do you learn something? Everybody has to learn something. So like my way, like I'm like huge on YouTube tutorials, I'm huge on we have it, like Tulip has a ton of resources.

[00:26:16] You could go to university dot Tulip, you can go to community and talk to people. For me, like I just want so tinker, and then I'm thinking about a problem I want to solve. So if you're just tinkering for tinkering sake, then I don't know to what end that will bring you.  more power to you.

[00:26:33] People learn that way, I don't know, but for me, I'm really interested in like solving a thing itmotivates me. So I get really interested in solving like, Oh, I need I need to figure out how to do this. So like, how do I figure this out? And I just started searching and looking and hacking away at it.

[00:26:48] So for me, it's really important that I have a problem I want to solve, I think, a harder thing. Maybe then cause no code it should be easy, it's like there isn't really code there. So like it's like learning any other program I don't know what other programs there are, but Adobe.

[00:27:04] Photoshop or something like you get there's experts in it, but it's going to take you a little bit of learning curve to figure out how to learn, use it. And it's like any software like that way so you have to get over that hump in this like material for you, YouTube or whatever.

[00:27:15]And don't even, you don't have to use Tulip either. You can use whatever you want. I don't know. There's other ones out there. I just think Tulip is awesome. So I would recommend use that and it's like free. So just download it.  but I guess what I'm saying is the harder part might be.

[00:27:28] Like seeing the problem that you want to solve, and I don't know I think there's only two, like maybe there's two ways to get there to see the problem. Either one be very empathetic to people, so listened to people on the floor and look like, imagine what it's like to do that job.

[00:27:45] And if you do that, you might find examples where you're doing things that are painful and if you can imagine like Matt, you have to imagine too. So like maybe there's three things, be empathetic than be creative and imaginative. You have to like, imagine that there [00:28:00] is something better out there that maybe involves a screen or like a scanner or a piece of a piece of paper, imagine some like other future state.

[00:28:11] And then the last one would be like, maybe experiences. So like the more you see this sort of stuff and best practices and like problems. There are definitely patterns like I can talk to I'll talk to someone and I'll start imagining their environment. And then I'll just start guessing at problems because I like, what is it like when this happens?

[00:28:31]Oh yeah, that's a huge problem because these patterns exist like ultimately people are processing materials through a value stream. So there are patterns there. 

[00:28:41] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:28:41] Where's no-code going Mark you're, you're framing it. Like it's a problem oriented tool so it evolves with the problems. So we would follow from that perhaps in my thinking that the no code software vendors and problems will have to go hand in hand. So the future of no code is essentially embedded with sort of the problems that people on the shop floor. Are going to have in the years ahead, like there's no real direction there apart from what problems start emerging or is there a direction of NOCCA?

[00:29:17] Is it going towards an all encompassing system that is still very modular but it becomes a large animal that takes over Areas that would previously be covered by either other software tools or indeed there were no tools for it. Like where do you see this animal? I don't know what metaphor you want to use for the introduction of no code on the shop floor. But if you just imagine how it's going to evolve, what is your best guess on howa thing, like no quad evolves and moves on the shop floor, a few years from now. 

[00:29:51] Mark Freedman: [00:29:51] I do want to try and answer that even though like admittedly it's like science fiction to me and I have no idea, but I just, some interesting, like maybe questions about it.

[00:29:58] But one thing that I'll [00:30:00] say is that like a couple of years from now this gap is still there. Like most companies had these very basic gaps that like, you don't even need. I don't even need to think about the next version of what no code is going to do or how it's going to be, how this animal's gonna evolve, because the Manufacturing animal is needing to evolve into no-code still people don't realize they have this ability.So like once that happens, then I'd be interested to see what the new, like the people at the edge of the pack are doing. But right now the people at the edge of the pack are like embracing these new solutions, so like that still has to happen and it's happening and I'm seeing it and it's like pretty exciting, but by and large, it's not happening.

[00:30:38] Most people like it's still using Excel for this thing. You know what I mean? Excel is not a tool that you want to deploy to your factory, so like that, it's like the first thing is definitely let it evolve. Let people recognize this tool exist and then let's say eventually to answer your actual question, like, how does it change?

[00:30:57] I don't know, but only like monolithic software solutions. There's a place for having like a financial system of record and all this business and Europeans are awesome actually, really like ERP is, but like the way that you interact with software on the floor, like should is going to be this modular, like way where you get to make, it's going to do exactly what you want.

[00:31:21]There's no reason to accept anything less than exactly what you're imagining and want. Because you can, and it doesn't take any like anything, except for the will to make that occur. You don't need like an education to make it happen. So you should have exactly what you want. And then there's a notion of community, right?

[00:31:36] So like this, there are patterns I can imagine, like a shared community of these. I wish that there was an incentive to share best practices with your competitors. I guess it's not like maybe this is not going to be this community but let's say people get along and people just want to improve stuff like that community.

[00:31:55]Maybe it could be monetized. Maybe there's a reason. Maybe there's like people out there who like, do this. I have no idea, but I like the fact that things can be social and shared and I can press a button and you can get the same thing I just used. This is on, this is wild, and if we don't take advantage of that, then that's a mistake, especially with companies that own multiple companies, they can share best practices and like totally take off. Or like large organizations, they have the ability to share best practices and that's going to be really huge for it too, because we've seen great wins over in this area, download and use it over in this area.

[00:32:27] And then the next day they have it and now it's like standardized like it's really pretty need. So I see something like that happening. I'm not huge, honestly, on like the wearable, like headsets that like display like things it sounds very minority report and that's kinda cool. The problems people are facing I most often see aren't that advanced, I don't need to work in like a hollow chamber.

[00:32:49] Like I need to know where my part is. You know what I mean? 

[00:32:53] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:32:53] It's funny you say that because so much of the saifai fueled hype around a lot of technology, including industry shield technology. It is in this AR VR space where the senses like we're right, even this idea of the Augmented worker in a fairly simple sense, at least when it gets visualized people imagine the super gadget. Yeah. The thing, usually a wearable, whether it is a, glasses, Forum factor and typically it's like a foreign factor of something already existing. It's like an earpiece or it's glasses that turn, into computers and screens or it's like some sort of headset.

[00:33:37] That is semi in immersive or, even the exosuit stuff, it is like slightly in kind of the super power category.  When you look at Manufacturing super powers on the shopfloor, you see something somewhat less Uber. Cool. Yeah. 

[00:33:55] Mark Freedman: [00:33:55] I just  want to know, like this cell that I'm supporting, if they have a [00:34:00] problem, I want them to do something simple, push a button and then I want to be notified immediately that they had an issue. I want to see it visually somewhere like a light. I want to know how long it's been in that condition for. I want them to know that I've responded to them and I'm coming to help. And then I want to have that information be displayed to show how often is this happening?

[00:34:26] And what is a predo of my reasons for this? Then I want to solve those things. That's all I want, but right now I'm walking aroundsomeone has a problem and they just deal with it or walk away and try and find someone to help them. And none of that gets recorded. I don't know why I don't even know that it happened.

[00:34:41]Like this is a problem. So I just want to know that that's basic, and go audit 10 facilities tell me how many people do that. Like basically none are going to do that and they should, it's like a fundamental thing that you should do for operational excellence.

[00:34:58] If something, if there's a problem you should be notified of the problem and keep track of the fact that it occurred to communicate like this is not like it's not this other stuff. It could be, it's going to be wrong. Sure. Give me an exoskeleton. I'll go do whatever. But like first, tell me that something wrong 

[00:35:16] Trond Arne Undheim, host: [00:35:16] I like your approach.

[00:35:20] You had just listened to episode 22 of the Augmented podcast hosted from Trond Arne Undheim  the topic was Freedman´s factory. What is no-code? Our guest was Mark Freedman lean practice leader at Tulip. In this conversation, which is the first episode of the new segment that we have called Freedman's factory, which takes us deep into the shop floor philosophy.

[00:35:44] We introduced this new segment a month ago. In this episode of Freedmen's factory, we talked about no code in Manufacturing. What is it? What existed before? What difference does it mean? What about no code, low code? And my takeaway is that no code for industrial applications is something truly special building on what we have.

[00:36:07] What'd we have come to know from contemporary software applications that don't have it learning industrial no-code attempts, the same thing, but with software written for the physical world, which is immeasurably harder to do, because production cannot go down and you don't get second chances. I learned from Mark Friedman that two lips deeply humanistic approach to no code is rooted in the shop floor experience in trying to reflect, but also question factory floor behavior.

[00:36:38] I am on a learning journey. I still want to understand more of the discreet tasks and functions that digital no-code apps make flow so natural. Work instructions, machine monitoring and other things as always the depth in Friedman's message lies. It seems to me that his insistence on experience before tools, understanding before action and understanding people and the reasons behind their current process way before introducing any kind of technology as a tool to save their life.

[00:37:13] Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at Augmented podcast.com or in your preferred podcast player and bait us with five stars. If you like this episode, you might also like it. So 10, a brief history of Manufacturing software episode six, human robot interaction challengesor episode one, automation augmentation, the podcast vision to build a movement.

[00:37:38] Also, you missed the introduction to payments factory listen to episode 15 Freedman's factory introduction. Augmented upskilling the workforce for industry 4.0 frontline operations.


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Mark Freedman

Lean Practice Leader

Mark is passionate operations leader with experience in Lean manufacturing, materials and logistics integration, and process engineering, highly skilled in problem solving, data analytics, system design and communication. He holds a degree in biology from the University of Vermont.